Joshua ‘The World’s Mayor’ is joined in this broadcast by Mr. Roy Marcum, who is locked away inside of the shadow prison disguised as a hospital, under the controversial civil commitment law.

The Special Treatment Unit in New Jersey is one of many Civil Commitment facilities in the United States, and of all the interviews we have done in these facilities, this may be the most informative and believe it or not entertaining.

Roy does a wonderful presentation and answers some very challenging questions like…

What motivates the sex offender?

Why are violent criminals being released in various states but Civil Commitment institutions are expanding and building more rooms to house their prisoner patients?

How are sex offenders and sex addicts different?

The answers may surprise you…

Thank you for being a part of “Live From Special Treatment Unit New Jersey” Joshua ‘The World’s Mayor‘ on the Live Mana Network, brought to you by the Live Mana Worldwide Foundation.

The Live Mana Network is broadcast all over the world on your favorite streaming audio and video platforms like Apple TV, ROKU, Amazon Fire, and iTunes. You can also find us on Google News, and other print mediums.

Be blessed,

Joshua T Berglan

Buy Joshua & Jessica’s Book The Devil Inside Me, click here

Broadcast Outline 

 
 
Introducing today’s guest.
0:01
 
What are you grateful for today and why?
2:18
 
What’s driving the un-sex offender?
13:01
 
What’s the problem with these laws?
23:17
 
Three things they’re looking for in therapy:.
29:13
 
Treatment providers lie to people.
35:22
 
Let Him Have It.
41:42
 
Public shaming and punitive law in California.
46:21
 
Dairy lobbies in the 1930s got together and convinced a bunch of states that this was dangerous. This was a dangerous Poison.
50:28
 
What the public needs to understand about these laws.
58:34
 
Is there an incentive to have the beds full of prisoners?
1:02:28
 
Public discourse is like our old habits. It eventually chews up everyone.
1:08:22
 
Freedom of religion and freedom of belief.
1:15:45
 
Why you need to be praying for your enemy.
1:22:32

 

 

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TRANSCRIPT 

 

Joshua T Berglan 0:01
Hey, what’s up everybody, my name is Joshua and I’m the world’s mayor. We are broadcasting right now in the live mana network. So thank you so much to everyone who has supported us. It has helped kept us going. And of course, you can find our network on Apple TV, Roku, Amazon Fire, the app stores have your phone, tablet or computer smart TVs. Also your favorite podcast network today is going to be special. But really quick before we get into that we are a 501 C three nonprofit media organization in multimedia broadcast network. So we are listener viewer supported. And of course, you know, we’re very, very passionate about what we do being a voice for the voiceless, but also elevating voices for the voiceless. And today, we have somebody that’s Well, I mean, in some way had his voice taken. But now he’s getting his voice by being on this program. And now he has also been a voice for other people that are locked away and shadow prisons known as hospitals. We’ve talked a lot recently about civil commitment laws. Mr. Roy Markham is joining us today from the special treatment unit in New Jersey. And he’s got quite a story to tell. I’ve gotten to know him a little bit over the last month. He’s a really, it’s hard to imagine this guy committing any crime. It just is. He’s just seems like a lovable guy. It’s like you’re your favorite cousin. It’s just the vibe about him. But I don’t know anything about what he has been accused of. I don’t know about his crimes that he has admitted to. But I’m very, very excited to hear his story and hear what he has to say. And for my understanding has been locked away for 20 years with no hope of getting out. And this is after he already served his time. This is going to be a very horrific story for some people to hear, and may confuse people. But at the same time, I just asked that you open are you have an open heart and open mind. So he will not be on video today. So you’ll be hearing him. Just his voice. He may hear see some weird facial expressions for me because I don’t know what you’re about to hear either. So with that said, let’s bring Mr. Roy Markham on Roy, how you doing, man?

Roy Marcum 2:18
Doing? Good. Josh, good to hear from it. Well,

Joshua T Berglan 2:20
good, good talking to you again. And First things first, we start off every broadcast by asking this question. It’s the only plan question we have. What are you grateful for today, Roy and why

Roy Marcum 2:33
I’m grateful for this interview. I think that the reason why it’s gonna become obvious during the course was there’s a lot of confusion and a lot of ignorance, quite frankly, out there about what sex offenders civil commitment is. And I’m glad to have the chance to put the story out there for people to get it straight. And then hopefully a cogent fashion.

Joshua T Berglan 2:54
I love that man. Yeah, and you’re right, there is a ton. There’s a ton of different stories, there’s a ton of confusion. And it’s really even for me now who immerse myself in this the last few months. There’s just a lot of loose ends. And it’s like every time I try to make a connection to something that seems to slip away. And so I’m excited to hear from you because you have a unique perspective, I think that other people don’t really have. So I’m really, really excited to hear what you have to say, man.

Roy Marcum 3:24
I think unique is one of those words. It’s like the old Chinese cars for the suppose a Chinese dress where you live in interesting times. Yes, I have a unique perspective that other people don’t have. And I hope for their sake, they never get a chance to have it. speaking to you from a civil commitment center Center for Sex offenders. This is a place where people come after they’ve done their prison time, supposedly for treatments. But primarily, the idea is that people have been selected as highly likely to commit some kind of an offense in the future. Now, the particular one I’m in is located in New Jersey. This place is called the special treatment unit. And it’s located in the town of Avondale, that which is not to be confused with the adult diagnostic and treatment center. That’s an actual prison for people who are still serving their sentence and have some date when they’ll be released. Unfortunately, many of them to come here. But that’s an actual prison, although we’re located in the same town, and we share some of the same administrative and correction staff with them. The basic thrust of this, it started in Washington in about the 1980s there were a series of sex crimes that were widely publicized, and that scared a lot of people. And what they started doing was they started looking for a way to indefinitely sentence people. In other words, people weren’t satisfied with the 510 1520 year or even in some cases live sets that people were getting people want to do. Lock them up for up was the idea of it and unfortunate Literally, this caught on in a Supreme Court case called Kansas versus Hendrix. One of the things that they did was they approved of this type of civil commitment. And the reason that they call it civil commitment is that it’s a, it’s related to the normal mental health, social commitment laws for people who are mentally ill and considered dangerous. Except for this, you don’t actually have to have a mental illness, you have to have what’s very loosely called a mental abnormality or personality disorder. And that’s been done. So they have what they call a very broad diagnostic catch. Think of it this way. If schizophrenia is pneumonia, and bipolar is a severe flu, this is a case of the sniffles. have virtually anybody walking down the street can be diagnosed with some type of mental abnormality. The other

Joshua T Berglan 5:54
two, I want to sorry to interrupt you, man. I know man, but literally in the newspaper today. It said, Jessica, you saw it. 1 billion people, 1 billion in the world have a what’s it was a mental mental disorder, a mental disorder. So like whether it’s di D BPD, bipolar disorder, a billion people in the world have it. Just to give you an idea of how broad it is.

Roy Marcum 6:27
That’s one of the big problems with this. This is this is effective in the military, and in the paramilitary operations, like police or firefighting or something, they use a term called mission creep. When you start out with one objective, and you say, well, as long as we’re doing this, let’s move over a little here. Well, let’s clean up a little bit in this area too well, why don’t we do a little bit more than pretty sure you’ve lost the focus of what you’ve done, and what you started out to do, and of what you’ve built so far. And this is what happened in the field of mental health and behavior. You got what what some people are calling diagnostic creep, you got to the point where you’re trying to medicalize every aspect of human behavior, okay? You’re trying to treat things that are personality quirks or behavior problems, or crimes, or just really, really evil people as though it were a disease is over a medical condition. The reason that this is the reason that this is inappropriate, problematic and dangerous, and all the other negative words. Second thing is that there’s no certainty. Even if you look at the DSM five, I think there is now they’ll talk about a lot of things that are culturally determined that are that are dependent on a person’s interaction with society and dependent on deviating from cultural norms and expectations. And quite frankly, you know, a broken arm or pneumonia is a broken arm or pneumonia in Beijing, Belfast, Johannesburg, Dubai. Cincinnati anyway. So something that’s culturally dependent, how can you turn around call that when they come up with this term personality disorder? Well, how can a personality be a disorder, personality can be negative can be destructive. There’s lots of bad things in the world, lots of bad people, lots of mediocre people, lots of people who are in the middle of roll up and down the scale. But that doesn’t necessarily become a medical condition. And unfortunately, this is what they’re trying to use to incarcerate people who have been in most states convicted of sex offenses, although not all of them. But we’ll get into that a little later. But they’re trying to use these very broad diagnostic criteria, to say, yes, we have a medical reason to believe that you will eventually, you know, our diagnostic race. In some states, depending on the terms of the statute, we have a diagnostic reason to believe that you will commit a sex offense sometime in the future. So everybody that’s good want to be show commitment centers, is locked up not for what they’ve done, but for what someone thinks they might do. And as a matter of fact, in at least two states that I know of Illinois and Kansas, you don’t even have to have a conviction. You could have simply an accusation of a sex offense, where the charges are dropped, or you’re found not guilty, or the accusation just never pans out into any kind of a criminal conviction. And you can still be put into these places. Now even with Illinois, they have a very sneaky way of doing it. They try to disguise it as some kind of pretrial intervention until somebody’s accused of something. We’ll go for a couple of months of treatment, and then we’ll drop all the charges because this is obviously more of a mental health condition that it is a crime. And these poor souls end up in there 20 years later, okay, they’re not told what they’re going. Right. In Kansas. I’m not 100% sure how it works, but I do know that according Kids have statutes. Yes, an accusation is sufficient. So the thing about this, your people that are potential, you’d be locked up from life. And in some states, you don’t even have to have a crime, you don’t even have to have one single conviction on your record. And this amendment very common, they say that these are for the worst of the worst, or for people who’ve committed multiple sex offenses, or we know these guys don’t stop. You know, the old saying about sex offenders have the highest recidivism rate of any group of criminals, you’ll hear a lot of people state boards of parole state commission saying things like this fact just the opposite.

Joshua T Berglan 10:41
You heard that? Yeah, it’s not true.

Roy Marcum 10:44
And it’s absolutely not true. All right, I have a bunch of notes and information in front of me and I can give you the sites and I’m not going to bog you down with too much. But I will do is, is get this information and put it out there on the web for people to link to. But I’ll give you some typical things are Carl Hans is one of the major researchers in sex offender recidivism and treatment. And many of his studies are used in diagnostic ways and doing analysis of people that they’ll find, you know, committable under the statute, one of his study shows that the center of this recidivism rate over five years was 13.4%. That’s the highest. There’s another study that showed sex offender rate 7.7% of rapists were re arrested for rape within three years of release. That’s Alan J. Beck and Bernard Shipley, Bureau of Justice Statistics, recidivism of prisoners released in 1983. And that figure has held up over the years. Okay, I have to give you another one. Just just to show you what the what the actual thing is. 2016 Department of Justice study found that just 5.6% of sex offenders were re arrested for rape or sexual assault within five years of relief. And what’s even more interesting about that is that virtually every study has shown that like any kind of behavior that diminishes over time, the longer you refrain from doing something that was like your to do it again. And it doesn’t matter what it is good or bad. Okay. After five years, the rate drops off to almost nothing. And that’s across the board for almost everything. The only group of people, the only group of criminals that have a higher rate of reconviction or reinvents, or a higher rate of recidivism, is homicide. And that’s generally because people get a life sentence are executed, or basically, most people really only have about one murder that hovers somewhere around one to 2%. But the sex offender, reoffending rates have been measured as low as 2%.

Joshua T Berglan 13:01
Roi. I got a question. Sure. This, I’m sorry to interrupt you again. But I I tend to be a bit of a went back. No, it’s okay. Because I want you to get through I know you have a lot of material. But so one of the things that I was a chem sex addict, so drugs and sex were my thing. And it escalated over time, like, in other words, what got me off the first time that I needed to amp it up a little bit the next time and the next time and the next time and the next time. And so it’s really interesting, like when I was listening to some of the Jeffrey Dahmer tapes, and I’ve heard him talk about killing because you were talking about, you know, the, the repeat offender. And he, like, the more he killed, the more he wanted to do it. So it’s almost like what I’m where I’m trying to understand, like, I believe these stats, because I’ve seen them myself. But what is driving the quote unquote, sex offender? Because if it’s, if it’s not like a sex addiction, if it’s not like, what, like, how, how is it not one of those things that you keep wanting to do? Because if you’re acting out it sexually, typically, it’s because you’ve got a drive and a desire to do it. And then once you scratch that itch, then you want it more. So can you explain, and I don’t even know if you’re qualified or you have an opinion or what, but how that those two things seem like they’re in the same family. In other words, the sex addict, the chem sex addict, they always want to do something more and dirty and more of it. But why is it with a sex offender? They don’t serially repeat their crimes.

Roy Marcum 14:48
Well, the answer that is twofold. Okay. The bad ends of the answer is that there are those that do and there is a certain percentage of people that have some kind of pathology that Causes of not just like, there’s a certain percentage of people who are genetically or because of their personal history, or because of some factor in their life susceptible to alcoholism, okay, or susceptible or more vulnerable to drug addiction to opioid addiction to cannabis, things like that. But the sad truth of it is just like most seeds are not kleptomania. Okay, most sex offenders are actually fairly ordinary people. And one of the reasons that these laws have been put in place is people want to distance themselves from, from things from impulses that virtually all of us have at one time or another. The problem too, is how they’re defining sex offenses and how they’re defining sex events. Did you know that in Kansas, there is a law that says that anyone, even another teenager, who touches the teenager with the purpose of sexually stimulating is guilty of a sex crime? Do you know that a lot of these laws have been applied verified, we got two guys here, we got one of them. I’m not gonna give his name because that’s his business share. But he’s a real horror story. We have two guys here that I know. But there have been others. And I think there’s a few more that I’m not that familiar with, that their crimes were committed as juveniles. And a lot of these are what they call Romeo and Juliet crimes where you have somebody who’s 17, and they get sexually involved with someone who’s 13 or 14, and that’s prosecutable. We had a guy in here who had a sex crime, I believe he was 14 or 15. He was incarcerated as a juvenile, he finished the sentence, they let him out, they waited till he turned 18, he was on the street, pick them up on his 18th birthday, notice he was not the quarterback. And a lot of the people who were brought into the situation, literally have not committed a sex crime in over 20 or 30 years. So what you’re describing is the problem, there’s two things that people get caught up in, when they think of something that scares the one is what’s called the availability heuristic. That means what you’ve heard the most. And right now in our society, what you’ve heard the most generally, whatever is being valued on the, on the internet, or on the local nightly news or the paper flow story, you’re gonna find that the more lurid tales capture your attention, and they’re easier to think of, and be present, easier to think of, it gives the mistaken impression that it’s a comedy event. But it’s not. A lot of these are extremely uncommon. I know two people, both of whom died six times literally went back to the early 80s. And they were brought in here in 99. Well, what was brought around 99, just as they were opening the facility, and another was brought in the early 2000, late 2000. Now this gets into something called a recent overt act. A lot of these statutes don’t have requirements that no reason overt act is a technical term, basically sound technical sounding, it basically means Have you done anything like, Have you committed a new sex crime? Is there something that’s just happened with last year, six months, five years, within a few weeks with a petition? Why the states don’t have in New Jersey, you can literally and this is, again, a couple of cases have just described, quite literally what happened. You can have a sex plan that’s more than 10 years old, you can be walking down the street, get on the wrong side of the Attorney General, and he can be locked up and putting

Roy Marcum 18:39
in other states, you can be doing time for a completely unrelated offense that has no sexual connotations that has no connection to sector funding whatsoever. And at the end of that sentence, you can be brought to civil commitment center and civilly committed for the rest of your life. We got a guy in here, okay, who violated the conditions of his probation by joining a social media app. All right. Now, first of all, within five years of his being brought here, that law was struck down what he did now is perfectly legal for people on parole and probation in New Jersey. He never had another conviction. He never had another accusation. He never had anything. He was living a successful life as a tractor trailer driver. And because somebody, by the way, actually what happened was some well meaning but fairly stupid front of his over the Facebook app for him. And he ended up here violated on that, because they violated his probation gave him a minimal sentence for that. And then they sent them here. So, to answer your question, yes, what you’re describing does happen, but it’s just not the most frequent thing. You’re talking about a very small percentage of the cases. Think of the number of people who are thieves and think of the number of those these are maniacs. Compare the number of arsonists to the number of people out there. starting fires by accident or insurance fires. And that’s about what you’re doing.

Joshua T Berglan 20:04
That is a really beautiful, I don’t know, beautiful, appropriate word. That’s a great example. That is, I can’t believe you were able to answer that question the way that you did and and make it make sense. So what motivates the sex offender now is? And I know you can’t answer that question because you can only speak for yourself. But it’s like, what’s the motivation? Is is the thing and it sounds like some of the stuff happens on accident. I know one of the guys in Minnesota. I know about his situation. And like, I could see how, in a drunk mind that we’d be like, Oh, that’s acceptable. And then sober. Oh, shit, I wouldn’t do that. Yeah, this is really interesting to me. Because there’s a lot of like, a lot of gray area stuff here. That is, is being weaponized

Roy Marcum 21:01
by this mitre to jump in on you. So I’ll do it. I’ll do I’ll do I’ll do one for every three you get on me because it’s your show. We’re gonna go here, we got a guy here who and I don’t mean to be cavalier about these things. Okay. Nobody is minimizing the suffering of victims. As a matter of fact, the majority of people here have been victimized sexually at one time or another in their life. And that’s another one of the tragedies of this is that there is something to the idea that sexual victimization can lead to central setting however, then you lose your sacred victim status. And now you become the villain, but it gets to this guy. He’s 10 years younger than me. So that puts him in his late 40s. I’m right up on the edge of efficiently. Right on his right on his notification page, it says consensual sexual underage girls. This guy would go to college parties. And he would pick up girls because he just like that guy, tall, handsome. Right? Here we are. Swedberg, a great looking guy. And he had like that. And a couple of times in his life, he ended up with underage parts. Now one of the bad things about that is in New Jersey, a mistake, even a reasonable mistake is not allowable. Federally it is. Okay. If you are positively misled, if a girl shows you a fake ID swear she’s over 18. In New Jersey, you can still do that, even though you had no reasonable way of doing and on top of that. They’re sitting here treating him for telling you day after day in the so called treatment groups, but you must have some pathobiology must be attracted to underage girls. Because how can I have a pathology? How can I have an intention? What I didn’t know I was doing. One of the girls did actually show him ID and the other one told him she was over 18. And maybe he should have checked, but it was actually put in New Jersey. That’s no defense. Your Jersey law says two bets. She showed you a fake ID well, you should have known anyone that’s ever told you how you supposed to know. But

Joshua T Berglan 23:17
you’re right in it’s and listen, I that to me, it could have I mean, I could have done that a bunch of times and never know. And, and I’m not justifying the way like I’m not saying well, you shouldn’t dress. But we have I was we were at a fit, like if some family Fall Festival thing. And it was a church event of all things. And I’m looking around, and I see teenagers and they’re obviously teenagers, but they’re dressed up like they’re going to an adult Halloween costume. That in itself. Listen, I’m not saying that that person deserves anything bad that happens to him. But I’m saying when that girl goes to a party, and she’s drinking and she’s around a bunch of drunk horny dudes, no one because of the PERB switch or whatever happens with guys is going to be like, I mean, you’re at a college party. Are they honestly thinking to themselves, I need to ID this girl, when they look like they’re the same exact age or they already have fake boobs or they have whatever. Like I’m telling you, these things are really, really dangerous. It doesn’t excuse anything that has happened maliciously or intentionally. But some people are getting set up for failure. Like it’s just a bad deal, man. I don’t even know how to describe it.

Roy Marcum 24:41
It’s not it’s not only met. I mean, there was there was a couple of famous cases. And I saw this one poor woman. She was being interviewed on a show and I can’t remember the specifics of her case. But she was talking about it. She says How am I supposed to understand that this man He was taller than me and stronger than me and is growing a beard. How am I supposed to know that he was 16? Or whatever? I mean, here’s a woman in her mid 20s. Okay, maybe she feels like getting a little Cooper practice this way you get 40 Do you think thinks is in college, okay? There’s a whole feminist movement out there telling her rightly by the way, okay, that women are free to explore their sexuality just the same as men are. And she turns around now she’s lucky enough not to be in one of the centers, but she’s kind of registered for life. Okay. I’m sorry. Okay. If you’re talking about if you’re talking about a 188 pound, you know, high school wrestler, okay, who happens to pick up his teacher sister at a PTA event? You’re gonna have a hard time getting me to believe that he was victimized. But this is the mentality, we have this in the psychology we do. Where it’s a conjugate. Okay. And that’s part of the problem with laws like, there’s no excuse me, what are the laws called, mens rea mens rea means basically guilty mind, sort of murdering the land, but it’s an intent to commit a crime. And again, like I was saying, in New Jersey, reasonable mistake, even a positive misrepresentation of the victim must have a rage is not a defense, when there’s no mens rea, there’s no intent to commit occur. Yet, because you have, again, legal term strict liability, all you have to do is cross over the line bank. And you’re gonna end up not only getting a criminal sentence, but potentially put into one of these situations where you’re being given what they call treatment. And again, you know, this has been shown, and this is one of the things that I want to emphasize, I want to tell everybody out there that’s got a relative, or a friend, or was able to listen to this if they’re in an SVP setting themselves, but 90% of what you’re being given his treatment, and what you’re being told, as absolutely nothing to do with you getting the right treatment is a busy box, like they can pull inputs to play with, okay to give you something to do, to give them away to troll for a little bit of information to sustain your commitment in the next year. If you’re lucky enough to be in the state, we’ll get to what happened was to go back to this Kansas versus case because this was the case where the law was tested. The Kansas Supreme Court wasn’t having any of this. They said, look, there’s a double jeopardy these people have done their crimes. They’ve done their time that don’t stay in Kansas, the executive branch anyway, not the judicial, which it just tried to do. They took this up to the Supreme Court under Kansas vs. And they had the perfect plane, they had the perfect straw man to attack for this. They had Leroy hood, okay. And I’m not violating his confidentiality, because his name is all up there over the internet all over the case law itself. He sat there and he said, what I get stressed out, I can control your cholesterol. And they’ve taken that neighborhood. The things that go on in these places, under the name of treatments, but constant abuse, okay? The browbeating the accusations of false accusations, the lack of due process, that continual harassment continually having a living quarters tossed and turned upside down. In some states they have, they’ll give you a list of people who you’re allowed to contact on the phone, and we were allowed not to, in some places, they hand you a bill for this, they lock you up for this for the rest of your life. And they’re to bill you $100,000 a year like this to kind of freeze that you’ve signed up for bankruptcy for life if you ever get out. Okay, and then sit there until you will apply yourself to treatment used to be motivated for your treatment. And this is from extensive discussions with public defenders and sector vendors all across the country and with experts who testified in different cases. All these experts for the Attorney General’s and for the county prosecutors. That’s why I was presenting the petition. Again, different states have different laws. All they’re looking at is three things. One, you have a sex offense. You have what they call a mental abnormality, and three, can they justify the dismissal abnormality somehow predicts that you will commit a sex crime. And the main thing they base that on is this idea of getting back to a Hendricks said that when I get stressed out I can’t control the urge to molest children.

Roy Marcum 29:39
No matter what they tell you in therapy, no matter what they tell you a treatment. All they’re doing is pushing your buttons and jerking you around to the point where they want to beat you down to make you so passive. So ready to accept the views. Then they feel like setting you up there. It’s like the flying a cat churning them out to be feral. Alright, Hey, there’s a little game they love to play in here. Again, this is in New Jersey, to the special treatment, part of the treatment so called hit. It’s allegedly based on cognitive behavioral therapy, which let me tell you it’s not cognitive behavioral therapy requires an alliance between the treatment provider and the patient, that a which you have, you’ll do a little exercise, you’ll write an autobiography, a sexual history questionnaire, they’ll have what they call a maintenance contract. And it’s not a contract in any sense, because you’re the only one pledging anything. But it’s a little list of hobbies and exercises, histories, that they’ll tell you to write down and work out with this will help you avoid recidivism in the future. And what they’ll do is you’ll do this, you’ll complete your little exercise with a little gold star in your paper that will tell you to say, look, this is good, but we want to change, we want to make a change that we feel will be more effective, and secure treatment from those who are no ma’am, you make the change, or you make a little change. Okay, that’s where you change this and this. So now you’re on to the B version of it, and you change the B version of it around the other one a C version, and we’re looking at just change one more thing, if you have the sense to keep track of what’s they count on, you’re not doing by the way. But if you have to keep records for if you do like I do, and you see what other people are doing, and, you know, try to help them with some of the writing skills and stuff and get access to a number of these things. If what they’re doing is you’re going to be a version to the B version to the C version. So that’s what we’re down to. And then when it gets to the very last one, it’s exactly what you turned it to begin with. They didn’t want any of the changes. What they wanted, was just to tell you to move around, and go here and go there and go here and go there. Okay, they want you to react with compliance, no matter how ridiculous something they tell you. They want to sit there and hit you whatever it is. They want to hear to a green one on Tuesday, Wednesday morning, look you dead in the eye and tell you it’s red. And you’re supposed to say Yes, back to a Friday, they tell you it’s purple. And by next Monday, it’s green. Again, there’s alternative, plenty things bit orange. But you’re supposed to sit down and just say this is what’s actually going on. The vast majority of this treatment is a completion. And the sad part is that the novice, I had notes on a bunch of other things, but just bear with me for a second, I want to get to something that I call the California cover. There was a guy named patients Padilla, who had worked in for one of the centers in California and has since changed the current center where they have these folks is in Coalinga, but what they have here is a Tuscadero was able to solve it. And this by the way, this is what I’ll give the title of the article out in full and then there’s two books that everybody’s interested in this needs to get older. But this is called assessing the real risk of sexually violent predators. Dr. For those dangerous data, American criminal law review summer of 2018 published by Georgetown University. He had a study that showed again to get to the recidivism rate, just 6.5% of untreated sexually violent predators were arrested for sex crime within 4.8 years of released a lot. So he also was showing that there was little if any treatment effects of treatment didn’t do anything. Well, where did this study got up? And it doesn’t set a public defender fighting to get his clients, as we speak. Heard about the study, he was trying to get his clients commitment lifted because in most he do have a public defender signed although in some in some limited value. But whenever possible mental health, they practice quash the subpoena when this guy wanted to testify. Now, mind you, this was a study that had been commissioned by the state of California that had been commissioned by Atascadero State Hospital. This was a study that was ordered to do. Well, he went and testified and they tried to use HIPAA, they tried to use other things to prevent him from testifying. So Padilla eventually went testify just to his generalized fine.

Roy Marcum 34:19
Well, at that point, a Tuscadero chief executive Melvin Hunter board approved in support of the stellar study abruptly retired, not offering any reason why he was replaced by a man named John D. Morales. What they did was they shut down the village. They confiscated all they actually went to his home and seized physical records of boxes demanded that he turned over all the electronic records and they even accused him after they had pushed this data on Him and given Him a society. They accused him of accessing this illegally through the somewhere but basically through the electronic record system that the state of California keeps They did everything they could to suppress the study. And you can find all of this out again, the article is called assessing the real risk of sex offenders. Dr. Pinto was dangerous. As soon as the study didn’t show what they wanted, California went out of its way to do everything they could to suppress this information. This is what is going on everything. Okay? I’ve seen these treatment providers sit there lie to people right in their face about things that they were said, okay, no matter what I’ve said it, I’ve said it to people in here a dozen times, okay, good care, if you’re near the front gate, or you’re out on a furlough or something, which is very rare. But a school bus turns over and catches fire. And you run in there and you pull a bunch of people out, you pull the driver three kids up, you’re gonna get a report that says escaped custody to father children. You can’t win, no matter what your total is. One of the things that really gets under my skin have I been a treatment user the entire time, because I read, I got a quick read of the room, and I knew what the program was about. They will sit there and tell you, they want to drop it into you when you’re a sex offender first, last. And that’s just not true. Effects events is something that a person has done. It is not who you are, again, other people have pathologies. Yes. But not every piece of equipment media. Not everybody started insurance fires and arson. And still, some of these people, there are people in here who have been teachers, correctional officers, this guy in Washington, who was an attorney, okay. There are people got caught up in this thing with their kids. There are people in here when a public urination charge, and it got on their jacket sex offense, actually not getting unfortunately,

Joshua T Berglan 36:51
I would be in a lot of soul.

Roy Marcum 36:56
It’s so hard to accept. Because it’s like saying terrorists is a sexual predator peoples Oh, my God. Again, yes, there are horrible things on there. Okay. No one wants to be right. No one wants to be no child wants to be molested. Nobody’s saying anything. bad or negative. Or anything about any of the victims. No one’s even denying that there are victims, okay. But don’t make us all the victims of this. Okay? This is a bad is a dangerous law for so many reasons. It locks you up for what people think you will do in New Jersey a few years ago, unfortunately, never got out of committee, but it’s still lurking there the way bad legislation does. Somebody introduced something called the violent predator act. It was basically a clone of the SVPs. With towards sexual taken. This would allow anybody who was arrested for vandalism, or fighting for public drunkenness, virtually anything because most of these laws have what they call a catch all provision where the judge can deem on the record that your offense qualified, even if it’s not listed, this would have allowed them to lock up anybody in a civil commitment center at the end of their sentence, and they were trying to apply it to non sexual offenses. Now, fortunately, that at the time was where people draw a line. But we spent about the last 10 years in this country and learning that where people used to draw the line doesn’t really mean anything anymore. So you know, the danger of these is not just the harm that’s inflicting on the 5000 some odd people in 20 states of the federal program that are behind the walls of the danger of this is that once you put a wall outlet that allows preventive detention, which this is, and again, don’t forget, and it makes two states and I believe there are more, but I know absolutely the Illinois and Kansas, you don’t even have to have a conviction. And this is another thing about the so called therapy. They’ll sit there and get me on and say this is a forensic institution, we’re bound by the law we have to go by what’s on the record. So we don’t want to hear well look, I took a deal because I was afraid of getting 20 years they told me to do three years to get out or it didn’t really happen this way. The record No, no, no, you sir. You have to go by what’s on that record, whatever says on your judgment of conviction. That’s the actual document that the court sighs we have to go by our judgment, okay. Forensic legal institution, you have to go back let’s you have something that was dismissed, let you have something that was found not guilty. Let you have something with witnesses even recanted. They’ll look you dead in the eye and say, Oh, well. That’s just that’s just the official version. We want to hear the real story. Wait a minute to go you’re only interested in the loves on the record. Yeah, you want to get the real story because he cuts against me.

Joshua T Berglan 39:51
I got a question. Because I everything you’re I mean, you’re blowing my mind right now. But it’s also bringing up this thought that you know, there’s a Uh, they’ve been releasing a lot of violent criminals. Like, you know, physical violence abusers, you know, weapons of violence with weapons, that kind of stuff, people that have done violent crimes, robbing people with, I don’t know all the legal terms for it, but violent crimes, just not sex offending. But they’re getting released. And now they’re releasing, like, I don’t understand why they are being released in certain states, in the States, by the way that have these hospitals like Coalinga as you brought up? Why would they release them, but seek to detain and capture and disappear? People that fall into the sex offender label? Why is that becoming such an emphasis and an issue? They’re building MSOP? They’re they’re adding more beds. And I heard that they’re building other these other they’re adding on to these other prisons? Why build that out? But then release violent criminals? That’s I guess that’s the question. Can you answer that?

Roy Marcum 41:15
Yes, I have that answer. I don’t know if it’ll satisfy everybody. And mostly, it’s not my answer. Okay. This actually brings us to one of the two. And I have to say that of the two, this is the I hesitate to say lesser, but it’s lesser in direct relevance to our situation. But it is excellent book. Because it covers things more broadly, it covers your question. And it deals a lot with registration. Joe has a wonderful book called not wonderful. It’s wonderful in its execution. I’ll tell you about the movie picking up later. But there’s a couple of real tragic things that are well executed. But no, well, I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you, really, just to give you an error here, we’re who we call him, let him have it. No. It’s about set in, in England, in the north of England. And it’s true story about a mentally retarded kid who ended up in the criminal justice system in England, because he heard the words let them happen. And what happened was he and another kid were out on some paper and the kid was Nobody disputes that he was mentally handicapped. He had one of them had a pipe that the cop saw was a gun. And contrary to popular mythology, no, there are times in England, when the police have guns and there was some shooting going on. And the officer was yelling at him, drop the gun, drop it, drop it, and the retarded kid yelled, let him have it, meaning let him turn over the pipe drop and get rid of it. Well, he interpreted that as let it happen. And there was not only shooting involved, but the kid ends up doing the rest of his life in prison. there’s every chance to see it. It’s called let him happen. It’s wonderfully done film that I absolutely never ever want to see again in my entire life. Because he does just that heartbreak. And I guess that’s why I described Dr. Lancaster’s book Roger inlet test. It’s called Sex panic, and the punitive state and his essential thesis to give a highfalutin term but is the central point is that sex has always had this bizarre place in American culture. And now that we’re inflicting this monoculture of what you think about this, this is you know, the same country that was largely founded by a puritanical sect escaping from England because the they weren’t allowed to persecute enough people under their strict religion. You know, these were people that were actually whipping Quakers as it has always been the puritanical streak in American culture. And yet one of the things that American culture is patient is advertising and everybody knows that sex sells so you have always had this bizarre cultural tension in America about sex and that’s why okay, because quite frankly, I can understand I mean, I’m engaging a little bit of parity here but you know what there’s a pointing to this point about I can understand why the kick somebody says maybe what the hell is time from a woman killed my boss I think tempted to steal I mean surely easy. $10,000 sitting around who would take rabbits you know, years ago it was the guy true story. guy picked up a bag of gold dust off the back of armored car just walked away with it. It wouldn’t go we would have got away with a duel for that and bid for all the canvas around so people somewhere in their mind they can see and they can relate to this Yeah, well you know I mean, it was bad what the guy did but how who ever want to kill somebody? Well, you know that that much money that templates, but I never do anything dirty. I’m not a pervert, you know. Here we go. Okay. And the symbol. Up tell me you can tell means that that being attracted to a 15 year old girl or having sexual or guy if I’m gay, you know, is is wrong. Tell me tomorrow you can tell me it’s bad for her or him. You can tell me it’s not a good thing to do. You can even make somewhat of a case that it shouldn’t be a crime that can be debated back and forth. But okay. Don’t sit there until it’s a sickness. Don’t sit look. One of the things that made me a dumping years I had a martial art school and I was accused of molesting students. And I’m not gonna go in to my story that deep in particular, but let me tell you something, this idea that that over age, sex is all these predatory men. Listen, you will you will run a judo class from the soccer moms in high school wrestlers. And you see just how exclusive that is to men. All right, you know what I mean. But people don’t want to admit that to themselves. People don’t want to admit that they’ve had impulses. A guy does one with that guy got a 13 year old daughter, he doesn’t want to admit that he’s watching her friends run around and sundresses and dig and maybe some people deep in their heart can’t face the fact that maybe some people even the heart can’t face the fact that they’re Americans, or that they have violent sexual impulse. And these are people looking for although they’re not accusing these people.

Roy Marcum 46:16
But other than to other people who do this to push that impulse away. Because that’s not normal, decent sort of crime bikes best or murder or something. Look, look what they cut out on TV. Okay, it’s

Joshua T Berglan 46:29
true. We celebrate violence.

Roy Marcum 46:32
When they ran the Rocky Horror Show for the first time on TV, what did they cut off? They cut out Frank given they cut out Frank giving rather than him smashing meatloaf in the head with a with an ice axe. So this has always been the tension in America. And Professor Lancaster again, the book is called Sex panic, and punitive status by Roger and Lancaster. It is published. University of California Press. It’s WW BB UC press edu and before we get into anything else, I want to get into the best the best introduction. And the sad part is judges should be reading this book judges. Attorneys, because of the level of ignorance of the legal profession in general, is, if anything as high if not higher than the general public shaming the Constitution by Michael L. Ferland, PR Li, and Heather Ellis, shaming constitution, the detrimental results of sexually violent predator legislation. And this is published by Temple University Press out of Philadelphia, PA. Now, Heather Ellis kuko, she actually was a public defender in the New Jersey, public defender’s office. And I have to tell you in New Jersey, especially recently, we’re rather fortunate our public defenders. Believe me when you talk to other people in New Jersey, you’ll hear the exact opposite. Right now I stand by I’ll tell you that for the first 10 years, no, they were terrible. But the squad that we’ve gotten in there now, they’re actually trying, but they have an uphill battle. You have a new system in New Jersey, where rather than having one court that hears these, they rotated among counties, technically the term is percentage, the Senate just means a local area with no jurisdictional significance. That’s why I say county because look, you don’t need a law degree, right. But you get a new set of judges every month. Some of them have no idea how this law works. Some of them are sitting up there quoting laws from other states or the surrounding like what they’re doing. They just want this off their desk, they just want this off their docket. These are faceless people who society has said it’s okay to hate. And they just walk them up against them,

Joshua T Berglan 48:59
and a stupid question for you. Sure. So you know, how a stupid answer. Perfect, you know how you see the TV cases, you got the attorneys prayed in front of the cameras and all that stuff. Why do public defenders not do the same thing?

Roy Marcum 49:20
I think some of them tried to, I think some of them do. And I think the ones that are better at that work end up working for high powered law firms. So don’t get me wrong. I’ve got one guy and again, it’s his share. So I’m not gonna give his name but I got one guy who actually left private practice to to come into the public defender system. I got another one graduated, I forget what law school but he was in the top seven students of his class. He came in to do this work. He’s now the head of the unit that defends these cases. He came in to do this work and he felt this was the most important area of law In the country, because he is so scared by that you talk for all the reasons I said, Yeah, I speak to him all the time.

Joshua T Berglan 50:07
We tell him all the time. Tell him if he wants a podcast to call me or any other media.

Roy Marcum 50:16
One might want one probably won’t. He’s He’s very big. I’m not trying his occation of the newspapers, as they say, but I’ll talk about and I encourage, because I think that this can be an educational tool. That’s what I’m hoping. I’m just letting people know, you know, fortunately, unfortunately, a lot of what I’m able to give you is because I’ve had 20 years of my life to mainly devote to studying this crap. Okay. Yeah, believe me is no fun. You know, I mean, it’s just, it’s

Joshua T Berglan 50:44
been hard to read, man. It’s hard to like, get through all the material that you all have sent me. Like, I’m reading it in my mind’s blown. But it’s not like it’s reading the funnies. I just dated myself. Um, you know what I mean? It’s not it’s not, it’s not it’s not easy reading. But my God isn’t important. And it also this carries over into so many other issues, obviously, because we’ve covered so much ground already. But this is, this is a, it’s amazing how they’ve tried to hide all of you away into this black abyss, soul sucking depth of hell. But the problem is, it’s still carrying over into our lives in ways that most people are not aware of. And this is a sneaky beast. I think this is I mean, because of how it affects other areas of life also.

Roy Marcum 51:41
Exactly, exactly. And this is, this gets you into something that’s central to this. And that, I think, because these laws were mostly passed in the early 2000s. I think these were kind of the canary in the coal mine, which again, some people were saying at the time, all right. One of the problems is that a lot of the so called facts that they relied on, just weren’t true. And this goes back to something they’re called the bill, not cases that Chazal cases not. In relation to this, anything we’re talking about will seem weirdly tangential. At first, the following. There were laws that were passed in the 1930s that were eventually struck down around 1972, it had to do with substance called filled milk. Filled milk is basically milk with the milk fat taken out some other fat put in. I mean, literally anything olive oil, margarine holy, what what, what happened is the dairy lobbies in the 1930s got together. And they convinced a bunch of states that this was somehow dangerous, that this was imitation. This was a dangerous poison. I knew it was. But it affected their business. So they were able to get bands on this put through and a lot of states. And eventually what came out of that was basically a principle that because you know the producers of this wallet, and then when they started, and then somehow by the way, skim milk or nonfat milk or reduced level that was a whole different thing, but Phil’s milk was dangerous, exact same product, do the exact same. What came out of this was basically that the idea is that essentially, if a law lacks a sound basis in empirical fact that the science of work if it’s just not a rational law, the courts are not free to ignore that. The courts and Chazal to Milan versus Richardson, there’s a bunch of cases and again, I’ll send them to you so you can people can link to but the courts are actually bound to go by the real world science. Except they’re not anymore. Look how more we become a society just by science. And it’s on the left as well as the right okay. The Lysenko was like okay, this this goes back to something and I’ll show you how dangerous this was. This was something actually got people killed in the Soviet Union. Have you ever heard the term Lysenko ism?

Joshua T Berglan 54:07
Now you’ve said a lot of words I’ve never heard today

Roy Marcum 54:10
unfortunately is two things. One is the irrational idea that you can affect genetically something by its environment. Now there are genes which is turned on or off you can damage the but you can’t winter wheat, you can’t freeze wheat and then have it grow in the cold weather, which is what this meant by Seiko did the other term. The other medium lysenkoism is what politics takes oversights, Stalin for some reason, love this guy. He ended up literally pushing this program where these idiots would take wheat seed grain, put it in a freezer, and then take it to Siberia. Because they’ve frozen it exactly. What you know

Joshua T Berglan 54:58
what, what’s the documentary well under

Roy Marcum 55:01
Stalin was locking up scientists and shooting people, accusing people for trying to tell him and people that this would work. This was this was serious. We’ve come as a society, okay? Look at the people who want to deny global warming, okay? Look at the people who want to, you know, who want to believe that, you know, that just can’t be listened to in terms of women’s health care, okay? Look at the people. And now look at the people who made up all these myths about sex offenders was the recidivism rate, the highest measure that even the people in this field could legitimately come up with, and even that’s highly questionable, is about 30% of the top category of recidivism. Well, that’s a seven out of 10 chance that somebody won’t come across as a real numbers hovered down in the three to 6% range. But you still have a Supreme Court that went and approved these things on the premise that these guys don’t stop. And we know that these guys do it again, and again, and this is one of the highest rates, and none of that was true. And this started about 20 years ago. So once that ball of law being able to just roll over and just churn up science, and popular politics, be able to just turn up facts and they take them away, okay? What that is, is the Juggernaut, that is going to end up destroying everything, because I’m sorry, bad information destroys the world, okay? If you have an engineer that builds a bridge, that is not sound, people walk on it, and they fall into whatever’s underneath. And that’s what we’re doing as a society. And that’s the real danger of loss like these, as much as I’m personally affected by it as much as 5000. Some odd other people are the whole country, and eventually the whole world is in danger, if not, specifically from this, although I would say definitely look for things like this, when people let their fear and their panic rule, what should be the rational part of their mind, what should be the compassionate part of the rule, which shouldn’t be the idea that there but for the grace of whatever the lie, I could be in that guy’s shoes, I might have done something, man, I’m glad I never or man, I’m glad nobody ever found out. Because I’ll tell you what. And it’s out there on the records. And I don’t have the dates in my head, but I can get them to you. I’ll give you the link on their website. There was a settlement agreement. I mentioned at TC, the adult Diagnostic and Treatment Center, the actual prison for people doing time. Well, a few years ago, couple of the three of the therapists were on their way to a conference to a conference for people who treat sex offenders. And the three of them stopped over a motel for the night. And lo and behold, two of the therapists were men, and one of them was a woman. And guess what? They sexually assault. She sued and there was a settlement. And a lot of it was quashed, but these are the people that are supposed to be providing treatment. Those who came in, again, was settled, eventually, there was an agreement, a settlement. But there was a sexual harassment suit among the treatment staff here. So it really seems to me like the monkeys have captured the peanut machine and are now running the circus.

Joshua T Berglan 58:34
Yeah, well, and that’s and that’s true, because it’s, I think about stuff that I somehow got away with. But then, but I know that that’s true for a lot of people, they a lot of people can say that. And again, it doesn’t justify but it’s, I guess what the prop that for the public, from my perspective. But we can talk about all the money that’s wasted. We can talk about the cash cow that these prisons are, and the incentives of why and how much these therapists get paid. We can talk about all that stuff. But in the end, what the public that’s not locked in one of these prisons need to understand is that this it’s very, very black and white in how somebody can just decide that what you did was deemed to be you’re now a sexually violent person. You’re a violent predator. In its in it can happen with the most simple thing. I mean, honestly, if it was just my girlfriend, Lucky say Jessica and I were married. I could go up to her and because we’ve had sex and we’ve had all this great stuff that a bubble blah, well, then one day she’s mad at me. And I go up and I slap rolled up and I don’t know she’s mad at me, but I slap her on the butt like I normally do because I’m a caveman and I love my wife, whatever. I mean, I can I feel like I can kind of slap my butt, my wife on the butt. But let’s just pretend we’re dating. What I’m getting at is this She could then go, he inappropriately touched me. And guess what happens? I’m in trouble.

Roy Marcum 1:00:10
Because you know what if that happened to you, there’s a 98 point, I think seven or something like that. 98.6 is like a body temperature as I remember. There’s a 98.6 likelihood, the test the first time anybody ever done anything like that, and that’s the real.

Joshua T Berglan 1:00:27
That’s, that’s why I’m bringing this up.

Roy Marcum 1:00:30
That’s the that’s the real thing that the public should focus on these things, every study. That’s, that’s been done in states where these laws have been enacted to prevent any 98% of sex offenses are committed by people who are first time offenders who never commit another act like that again in their lives. So these, these laws are not only bad and dangerous for the effect they have on our thinking of law in our society. Those are just plain don’t work. And even crazier, people talk about the cash cow that it is, and this that the other, you know, what, to a certain extent, and in some places, even estimate, some of this money is just getting wasted. Some of these people are just peripherally employable people who would not be able to get a job anywhere else. Some of them are thrilled. I’m not gonna say that these receipts. Look, I’m looking at the treatment team in aggregate, as what it is here as an absolute beast is one of the most contemptible bodies of people in the world. That said, there are people in it, who either a are stuck in it because they have to make a living, or be the poor souls don’t have any better sense than to think they’re actually helping someone. But the truth of it is these things, almost nothing but generate misery. And that they do it in a bubble. They do a great job of that. They do a great job of separating people from their families, they do a great job of perpetuating ridiculousness. They do a great job of pouring money down a hole, okay. Government believes you’re getting rich off of this crap. It’s just sad. All that money should be wasted. And it’s all based on people’s fears and on their panic. Nobody wants to be labeled Senator pervert. Nobody wants to go out and say that he can pay for the release of over 500 searches.

Joshua T Berglan 1:02:28
Wait a second, but isn’t there an incentive to have the beds full?

Roy Marcum 1:02:35
Oh, really? I mean, it’s a privately run companies. Yes. Okay. Okay. In New Jersey, that it’s $100,000 per year per second, which is essentially correct. But that’s based on on taking the total budget and dividing by the number of people they have here. It’s not like somebody pushes a button and then pitching Oh, we got another one that’s not 100 grand isn’t in the pot. Anyone that’s been that’s been different. It’s so small about so many people. Okay. Well, they have a staffing shortage here. They don’t you know, in some of these places as the so called staff that they have, I mean, Jersey leases, so professional requirements for the alleged treatments that suddenly place people without degrees, you have people that are working on their degree as social workers that are getting their practice. And it’s just the morass. No, I agree, like in Texas and some of the places where they’re run by for profit companies. Yes, there’s a profit motive there that gets me into for profit prisons, which quite frankly, to me, it’s nothing but slavery. Okay. If you are locking somebody else up to make money, you are keeping slaves. I don’t care how you’re justified. All right, that that’s, and maybe that’s irrational. And maybe that’s an emotional position of mine. But that’s my position. And believe me, I could muster back to support it.

Joshua T Berglan 1:04:00
I can I support irrationality, thank you very much. Yeah, I support what you just said. 100%.

Roy Marcum 1:04:12
I have an absolute. I always say that if you wake me up at 330 I’m a libertarian if you wake me up at two hours later and have a narco capitalist and I gotta drift around, somewhere to be left a left libertarian anarcho capitalist and even the best of the best libertarian writers. The ethics of liberty, I can’t think of that. I have to still be some I can’t think of the name of the beat Murray Rothbard. Even Murray Rothbard just said that there are certain things that shouldn’t be done for profit. Okay, keeping people incarcerated. There are dark times when a good responsible capitalist says it’s not the pirates. We have running things now. Okay. We’ll understand that there are some things that are above the profit motive. So for all you Marxist out there or we’re not all but you know, really there are some things and I think prisons or prisons should not be run on a for profit basis. You know, the reason that nobody can run these things like a business because it’s not a business indoors shouldn’t be Did you grow last resort? Only put people in when you absolutely have not something where you have an incentive to really think about it when you put a profit motive and to get to prison, sir into this. We’re incentivizing crime. Because you want if you’re running a for profit question, you want people to go out and commit crimes?

Joshua T Berglan 1:05:37
Here, here’s 100 bucks go rob somebody for me. Hey, I got a question. Did you did you grow up wanting to wanting to do radio or something?

Roy Marcum 1:05:46
Actually, I was. I was a theater major in school. Yeah, yeah, that was. That was that was that was my grant passion. That’s what I would have been doing.

Joshua T Berglan 1:05:58
Well, if you, like, I kind of feel like I’m just sitting here doing talk radio right now. Without smoking a cigarette and a dark room with one light and whatever.

Roy Marcum 1:06:15
Well, it’s a big room with a lot of dim lights, and they took away the tobacco products about seven years ago. So Oh, wow. I hope what I’ve done is, is to give people a real picture of what’s going on. And I hope the takeaway from this is, is is a couple of things. Number one, okay, these laws lock you up, based on what somebody thinks you might do. Number two, sex offenders have the second lowest next only to murderers or homicides, killers, whatever you want to term, you have the second lowest rate of recidivism of any group of criminals hovers around 6%, that top inflated number where they throw in all kinds of junk science to bust it up, the top inflated number that anybody’s come up with is about 30%. And even that says seven out of 10 of them won’t ever do it again. But the real number is more like about five or 6%. These laws are poisoning our system of justice.

Joshua T Berglan 1:07:19
I want I want you to I want you to answer this question for me. Why should the public? Like I know you’re you’ve answered the question a few times over but like in a sentence or two? Why should the public care about these institutions? Shadow prisons, Soul Life sucking facilities? Why should people care enough to fight? Or to get involved to help shut them down? Why should people care?

Roy Marcum 1:07:57
Because it goes back to one of the things I said at the beginning, okay. And the simpler version of it is, if it can happen to me today, it can happen to you tomorrow. All right, as we move farther and farther away from rationality, compassion, and actually thinking about what we’re doing, to be motivated by fear, and anger, and a desire to inflict pain on someone else. That eventually chews up everyone. And this is one of those things if you let it go, you know, man, it’s, it’s like our old it may feel great for a minute. But believe me, that stuff ain’t good for you. And laws like this, they may make people feel good for a while. But again, look at about the early 2000s, the late 1990s, when these laws were being passed, these stood up over time. And now look at the state. Now look at the degree of irrationality, it’s worked its way the public discourse, and how many people are suffering. This was the scene. I really believe that that in many ways, this was one of the scenes that grew into the malignant growth that’s just taking over all of our public discourse, become a more defined and more divisive, angry or or intolerant society. And I think that stepping up off like this and trying to understand you know, going back to a Pharisee getting getting America back we did the crime we did the time we do get your new start over again. And we have laws. We have laws that if you were repeat offending a lot of provide those laws was in the books that were civil commitment laws. If you had a genuine mental illness and were a danger, you could be put somewhere for treatment

Joshua T Berglan 1:09:45
that’s different.

Roy Marcum 1:09:47
Once it gets a hold of us, man, look at you know, talking about registration, you have over a billion people that are registered as sex offenders in this country. There’s only 5000 of us behind these All, but there are a million people that the tentacles of this thing is touching, anyone could be picked up or almost anyone, any when it comes to New Jersey can be picked up at any time. Okay,

Joshua T Berglan 1:10:10
I don’t understand why they just if somebody’s like, considered a high risk, but they haven’t done a crime, like every one of our friends, Tom, who set you know from what everything I believe with all my heart he was falsely accused. But he he had the idea of the GPS monitors. And to be able to track if somebody that you were really concerned with that was high risk, but hadn’t done a crime. Again, they served their time I put something like that on or, but in the other part of this that we didn’t get into is if it’s a treatment facility, and it’s supposed to help you, you know, if you’re doing the treatment, it’s meant to get you well, there should be proper therapies in place, at worst, are at the very least, these hospitals should actually have that, because there is good treatment out now. I’m a man of faith, and I couldn’t have, you know, I don’t I don’t judge any of you all, even the ones that are they’re guilty, I don’t judge them. Because I don’t look at the things that I did to be any better. I mean, I’m not gonna get into that contest. This is not a pissing contest to hear about, you know, evil or whatever was wrong, or the wrongs that were done the bad that was done

Roy Marcum 1:11:38
better not being out in the world or weekend.

Joshua T Berglan 1:11:41
Yeah, and, but I, you know, I just I recognize how easily this could happen to me, I or to any any other person I know growing up. And it’s just, it’s hard to comprehend, that people are being are suffering there and don’t necessarily need to be suffering, other people can reach. The point that I was trying to make, though, is that I was a mess, a mess, chem sex addict for 20 years almost. And my I mean, what that does to your brain and look just just where I was at, emotionally, spiritually, physically, everything like, that was a demon. I was a demon. I didn’t I don’t believe I was safe to be around. That said, I mean, God changed every thing about me. And and I have healed and but my journey for healing even. It’s been a long process. I’m not all the way healed. I’m not old. I’m not. I’m not I’m so far from protect from perfection. It’s like, it depresses me sometimes. But that said, I can look back at where I was in my life and my behavior and my emotions and the way that I acted my lack of impulse control. I learned all that stuff. Because I was willing to do the work to heal because I wanted to be told, but Yeah, hold on, hold on. But it was important to me after the realization that God had a better plan for me, that I surrendered to that, and it chose that life. And it took work and commitment to do that. I had good I was fortunate to have to grow up around good influences, somewhat, I mean, I was around some evil stuff, too. But I did see success, I did see good people. And a lot of people don’t have that opportunity. However, if someone is is installed hope, any amount of hope, regardless of what their upbringing was, even if I was I was, whether they were abused, it doesn’t doesn’t matter, if hope is is delivered to them in whatever capacity, that means they have an opportunity to turn their life around. And the opportunity that is available for every single person alive is that all the bad stuff that we’ve done and that we’ve gone through, we get to actually make it something we get to be grateful for. Because it could be the fuel for our purpose, it could be the actual, the actual thing that that helps, like the way that we turn with the way that we were able to make up for the wrong that we did is to use our bad news, our story, and use our redemption to reuse whatever it may be like whatever the word is, we get to use that to show other people a way out of their own health. And what I like about you out of all the people that I’ve talked to, is that you’ve seemingly have a great attitude considering you’ve been there for over 20 years, you’ve educated yourself, you’ve kept yourself busy, you manage to have a sense of humor, like you, you sound like you actually have hope. And that’s inspiring and I believe that that is you know, that is a good influence on other people. there. And so I really liked that about you. So my question for you, is this. How is it that you’re able to keep your wits about you in such a really awful situation? And have such a good attitude and have a really great sense of humor? Like, how are you able to maintain that?

Roy Marcum 1:15:25
Eating food objects with books I was telling you about, I’ve actually consumed I’ve been to a guy, when you’re talking to me, I’ve actually eaten two copies of those books. You know, what they were when I started before, they said that what you said there was your willingness. And that’s why it’s there. The whole problem with the premise of forestry, look, we have people don’t really understand. And again, it’s hard. It’s hard to really understand the Constitution and I spent years studying, it’s I’ve been fortunate enough to have some attorneys that helped me really teach me on the phone and my balance. But one of the things that people don’t really understand in this country is freedom of religion. Okay? We don’t have freedom of religion. We didn’t have freedom of religion, to protect people from religion, we have to protect people’s religious beliefs, we had that largely to protect religion. Because no matter what you believe about God, whether you’re whether you’re an atheist, whether you don’t believe in God, whether you are a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist, Quaker, Catholic, Protestant, if you’re forced to believe that, that you don’t really believe that we recognize because of the religious force in Europe, and the carnage that that caused, suffering that people endure, because of not following the state religion or the religious people willing to die for their beliefs, we recognize that that freedom, that willingness to believe was important. And that if somebody comes to religion, because they’re being whipped, because they’re being incarcerated, because they really believe that, amen, but if somebody comes to their beliefs freely, and they’re sincere in that, okay, that’s what they’re really coming to. So the simple fact that people want to turn their lives around people who want to change, people want to be treated people want to get better, we’ll find a way no matter what you get. The sad part is like, these programs will purport to teach you that report to give you that, and they don’t. All they teach you is that affects events is not something that you’ve done. You are and that’s just not true. All right.

Joshua T Berglan 1:17:56
Yeah. That’s man, that’s a beautiful way to end. My man, you are welcome back. Anytime. I, I enjoyed this. I enjoyed the Congress. Actually, I’ve enjoyed our conversations that really could have been recorded just as easy. But I am grateful for your time. I’m grateful for all the information. I’m also grateful for a different perspective that I’ve heard because you know, a lot of your a lot of people throw out the wasted money thing. And you’re honest even about that, you know, like even the numbers, like I appreciate the integrity and say, well, that’s kind of I mean, it’s kind of true. But it’s like one of those statistics that you can manipulate to say what you want it to say.

Roy Marcum 1:18:45
varies from place to place. Listen, I just want to get to things. Yeah, one more time before we go. Okay. Yeah. That’s a lot. And, you know, some of the people from pure and excellent organization, Citizens United for the rehabilitation of errands, they’ll supply you with information, but I want to tell everybody out there, especially any legal professionals who read this book, shaming the Constitution, Michael Perlis, and Heather Ellis Coco. Now for professionals, if you’re familiar with sex offender law, it’ll be horrible. But at least half the book is his references is professional journal, articles, peer reviewed studies. So that the second half of this book is an absolute cornucopia of references, and work and resources that a legal professional could draw on to improve this practice of law in this area. And for laypeople and for even legal professionals who are unfamiliar with it. There’s no better introduction to this to shaping the Constitution, and the other is sex panic and the punitive state by Roger inlet tester. It’ll give you a good insight into that whole weird American section is the best thing in the world and SEC sales section what this country is based on But of course, such as awful and terrible attorney, no one should ever have. Because this is America, they’ll give you a whole thing into that.

Joshua T Berglan 1:20:09
You know, that’s I boy that I have like a four hour presentation on the last subject alone. But we don’t have time for that. My man. God bless you. I’m I’m grateful that I’ve gotten to know you a little bit. And I look forward to talking to you again. And like I said, You’re welcome back anytime.

Roy Marcum 1:20:29
Thank you. All right, I will talk to you soon. And, you know, give my best to your wife and everybody. Hey, listen, guys. Thank you for QR for hooking me up with you. And thank you for this opportunity to record straight.

Joshua T Berglan 1:20:42
Yeah, you’re good man. Thanks, brother. Wow, that kind of he didn’t have, like he didn’t, what I liked about that he didn’t sound like a victim. When he didn’t sound depressed, either. I like I felt like I was just talking to like a cousin or something. And I still don’t know what he did doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. And that may sound terrible, but I’m not incredibly judgy. We’re gonna try not to be. And just so you know, I kind of have an ulterior motive with these broadcast. I do want to sneak God in there as much as I can. Because ultimately you’re gonna need an act of God. I’m talking to the family members, and because right now, people are a little freaked out about the life and a lot of crazy going on. And people are hurting financially. And there’s, like, another pandemic campaign. And, like, just what I want to say is this, and you may not like what I’m about to say, but I’m going to say it because I think it needs to be said, very few people give a crap about you guys. Very few people. I care about you. My wife cares about you. The people fighting for you obviously care about you. But it’s not a lot of people.

Joshua T Berglan 1:22:40
This is one of those things that within the Bible were talks says God makes a way when there’s no way there is no way. On the surface. These arguments are not enough to inspire people to do what’s right. On your behalf. Human the human anti human trafficking organizations have way more momentum than you. And look how well that’s doing. It’s not a good thing. And there’s a lot of reasons for that. Nuff time for that conversation.

Joshua T Berglan 1:23:25
It’s gonna be God, it’s prayer. I mean, keeping the faith keep doing what you’re doing. But this is one of those fights that you got to have gotten involved in this. I can’t see any other way and I’m not being negative. Actually, I’m saying this is a positive. And why I’m doing this is because I know that you will, as a whole. If you were to break this out in some mathematical figure equation, the probability of these prisons shutting down. It’s not going to happen. So but it’s but I I believe, and the reason I’m involved is that I want to help because I know every everything he said, I believe, but it’s more than that. I believe that a lot of the men and their needs deserve a second chance. Other people had just robbed from I also believe that people that were guilty that may have deserved to go back to go there. I believe that they are worthy of another chance. I mean, do you work for it? Yeah, as are but I, and I’m not playing doctor here. But it’s a statistical impossibility, most likely that there’s going to be enough people to act on your behalf. With the reasons that are being given, there’s gotta be something else. And I pray that God reveals what that is. And I could be wrong about this. But what I’m saying this is not to discourage, but to say that collectively we start praying for the same goal. And and for some people, for some believers that are watching this and going, have whatever judgment you may have same kind of stuff with the Jeffrey Dahmer episode. Like if you’re the type of Christian that believes that Jesus doesn’t save and heal sex offenders, you’re not the kind of believer I want to be around. But if you’re the type of believer that believes that Jesus died for all of our sins, I’m talking to you this, and this may feel like praying for your enemy. Because some of you have been hurt, some of you were molested, some of you were abused. Some of you experienced, you were the victim of one of the people that we’re talking about. But your prayers would be appreciate just going I’ve gotten to talk to, you know, quite a few family members now. And I admire your courage, I admire your heart. And I believe in what you’re doing. And that’s why we’re involved in this. But I, it’s just gonna take an act of God to reveal that missing part that is going to be able to get the public to want to pay attention to this. And obviously, the more stuff that content that you guys can put out, talking about it, which we are happy to help with in any nonprofit, any organization, to be honest with you that is out there. That is fighting the fight fighting for the voiceless fighting for those that have been left behind and forgotten. That we want, we’re here to serve you. We’re here to serve you. And I mean, look, we like helping all kinds of people. I mean, even the people that you don’t have the money to be able to spend millions of dollars to hire people, but we help them if they need it, but our heart is for the voiceless. And that’s what motivates us to fight and using, what we know, our skills. You know, what we use the media platform and the broader the network for kind of kicked off another strike on YouTube on my new account today. I didn’t even publish the video and they gave me a strike. This is why we have our network. Is this a censorship free network that Google can’t mess with. And

Joshua T Berglan 1:28:09
so that’s why we’d like another thing to like, we’re happy to host you, but we are a truly, we rely on your blessings, we don’t operate without your support as a nonprofit media organization and as a broadcast network. So we need your support, we need your donations to do that. You can scan that barcode. And any support matters means something if you believe in what we’re doing, you’ve you see the value in this. So into us, we can be of service to you. Let us know. We’re all about trading value for value. But if you don’t have the money, we’re not going to say we’ll screw you, I’m not going to help you. It’s not how it works. But we do need your support to keep going. And if you’re interested in joining our team, if you’re a journalist, if you’re an editor or you’re a producer, you’re a content creator yourself. You’re hit me up for real, like, you can pick that same website, look mana.org You can go there and just contact us at the very bottom page. The email goes right to me. We’re we want to grow. We want to help people all over the world. It’s not just civil commitment. It’s not just you know, and working with former trafficking victims or current trafficking victims, like we want to help. We’re that’s what we’re here for. But we are going to bring God into the conversation. Because I don’t believe that we can do any of these impossible feats without him. Now, that’s the cool part though. That’s what we were created to do. Are these impossible feats. But God gets glory. God is the God of redemption. God is the God of second chances. God is the God of miracles, you’re a miracle. Some of you are hanging on to it. Like, hey, like hanging on help. And, and God bless you for that breaks my heart to talk to the ones without hope because all I want to do is like just take a bottle of hope and shove it down their throat aggressively. Because no other way is working. But I mean, I believe only God can do that. Anyway, I’m just rambling now, it’s late here, I’d normally do early broadcasts. So you may get to see the sleep your version of me. But thank you for listening. And thank you for watching. Thank you for their support. For all the families out there literally just it’s time to pray. It’s time to it’s time to pray. And I know some of you have a lot of you have. But I believe God is a God of miracles. And I hope one of the things that I guess I’ve never even finished saying this, but my ultimate goal is to bring the love of Jesus into the walls of those prisons, because it’s ultimately the love of Jesus that I believe heals all wounds. And I believe that with all my heart, and I want that for them, especially the ones that are hopeless. But I do believe that we get God in the conversation and can bring the love of Jesus inside those walls. I believe that they’ll probably just fall down or something better or way more cool and dramatic. I don’t know. Anyway, God bless you. Thank you for being here. By

Unknown Speaker 1:31:42
Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved me. I was lost and found Was blind but I see I was lost I was blind