Paul David Madsen joins Joshua for a powerful conversation about grief, and how to use our pain for a purpose.

Losing his adult daughter and wife to death, just 9 months apart, taught Paul David Madsen about real grief. But at his grief support groups he saw few MALE attendees. This eventually led to his book, “Men Grieve, Too — Tools to Help Men Rebuild After the Death of a Loved One.” As a recruiter for 30 years, Paul knew how to ask questions. Now he was asking MEN questions about their grief. And his book has the answers.

Thank you for being a part of this segment of Joshua “The World’s Mayor” on the Live Mana Network, brought to you by the Live Mana Worldwide Foundation.

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My book: Men Grieve, Too: Tools to Help Men Rebuild After the Death of a Loved One: Madsen, Paul David: 9780971383654: Books





Joshua T Berglan 0:00
Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to Joshua, the world’s mayor, so blessed to have you here today, we have an amazing guest. In that I’ve actually kind of, I’ve gotten to know him really well. Unlike typically with my guests, I don’t get to know them until the day of the interview. In this case, I’ve had the opportunity to get to know, our guests, we’ve talked a lot, and a lot of it has to do with us trying to broadcast over and over and over again, but the technology gods weren’t happening. So, but nonetheless, I’ve gotten literally I think we this is our third time to try broadcasting, we’ve had internet issues the entire time. And, you know, I think that you get to know somebody pretty well, and adversity and mind you, you know, jumping on a talk show is not necessarily the best exercise of, or display, of showing like you’ve been through hardship, and you’ve been through struggle. And you’ve in you know, you understand grace, and all that stuff. But I mean, you know, being on a talk show, and this is like this is the livelihood for some people, this is what I do, this is what I’m blessed to do. And then we have our guests who are important because they’re coming to want to talk about something important, and all that matters. And so to get really excited to get yourself all pumped up to come on a show and share your heart, especially when a subject of what we’re about to talk about with grief, my goodness. And it’s like Gentlemen, start your engines room. No race, Gentlemen, start your engines from no race. That’s what it’s been like, try to tinker and everything. But do it all. Just watch the span. Just be as cool as the other side of the pillow. I think I stole from a rapper doesn’t matter. But the point is, I got to see him. And we got to talk through it all as we’re working the stressful situation out because tedious and it was stressful. But I got to see his heart do it. My wife had to see his heart who’s not going to be a part of this interview. But she tried the second time. Anyway, I am excited to have our guest on because one, I don’t know a whole lot about grief. I just learned how to have my heart broken. That’s a whole other story. But I learned that I was in trouble with my children, when the very first time that they broke my heart because I knew then that was wrapped around their finger. But I haven’t really experienced a lot of grief. Why? Because the two major deaths that I record, remember in my life. I was kind of a junkie. So I dragged myself out of any of the grief or any of the stages that people go through when they lose, I just numbed it. So I don’t really know. Like when my father died, I hated my father, I showed up late to his funeral. And I was fueled with so much angst and anger and rage towards him that I didn’t care that I showed up late and high on cocaine. So I haven’t experienced the grieving process yet. I don’t know what it’s like. But I will tell you that our guest lost his wife and his son nine, nine months apart. I can’t imagine my life without my wife, maybe my three other ex wives I could. But this wife, no, I couldn’t I couldn’t imagine losing either one of my children. And yet, I had other children before these children, and I neglected all of that. So I don’t have a real appreciation or understanding of what grief is. But I do believe that we are taught every lesson that we’re supposed to learn at some point. And I know myself will go through grief, a grieving moment at some point probably soon not to prophesy in my own life. But we live in very uncertain times. Very interesting moral. And so this interview is timely for me. But also, I believe that it’s going to be timely for a lot of you because you do know what it’s like to grieve. Or maybe you suck at grieving and you need to grieve. Maybe this will be the thing. So without further ado, please welcome and forgive me and my voice today. Mr. Paul Matson. What’s up Mr. Massey? And how are you sir?

Paul David Madsen 4:16
Hey, Joshua. Welcome. Welcome to me thank you for having me here. I appreciate the chance to talk with America’s the world’s Mayor rather the world’s Mayor How often does somebody get to do that?

Joshua T Berglan 4:29
Not very often unless of you come on my show. I even own the domain so I’m the official the world’s mayor

Paul David Madsen 4:37
I remember voting for you I mean, I was pretty cool but the right imbalance there I just wrote it in

Joshua T Berglan 4:46
you know what, I actually ran for president one time and and they had to write my name on the ballot box because kicked off the ballot during my speech. So after my speech was done. They had an announcement over the intercom that I was kicked off the ballot. My friends

Paul David Madsen 5:07
wrote me that’s not not a good sign if they’re announcing over the intercom did not consider you. Somebody who was the Who was the woman from California that Marianne ran for president got a couple of debates there and everything.

Joshua T Berglan 5:24
Oh, the spiritual guru. Marianne Williamson? Yeah, yeah.

Paul David Madsen 5:29
I mean, obviously, she wouldn’t have the constituency amongst the professional politicians and all that. But guess what, you know, she’s a, she’s a spiritual guru. And she’s written a lot of books. I she really raised her visibility, I think for the, for her products out there, didn’t she?

Joshua T Berglan 5:46
She did. And that, you know, I don’t know if how good of an investment it is to run for president. And I don’t know if they get their money back, or I don’t know how I don’t understand the economics of it. Because frankly, I don’t align myself with any any of the political parties. But that said, I thought it was interesting when she ran because I do know what she’s about. And she’s about the Christ consciousness lifestyle. And that’s tough. I mean, like, if you’ve ever if you’ve ever read the Course of Miracles, which is the is like the Bible for Christ Consciousness people. It is a fascinating book and her ideology. I listen to it peeps, some people say it’s very new agey, and it’s out there. Some people say it’s a complete blasphemy. But I don’t know why for the Course of Miracles, and it sure sounds like that’s what Jesus would say to me. So I don’t know. I don’t know what to believe about it.

Paul David Madsen 6:38
Well, I perhaps some people were, their consciousness is widened as a result of her running for office. So I was proud to see her do that.

Joshua T Berglan 6:48
Yeah, I am, too. And I listen to anyone that will stand on their spiritual beliefs, whether I agree with them or not, I admire them. And they immediately in my book, I respect them. Because standing on anything principle in this day and age is not a common trait. We don’t see that.

Paul David Madsen 7:06
You really don’t tell me it being a principal person is getting rarer and rarer. I don’t know if it’s the internet world, which has all the trolls and all the opinions and all that or what it is. But yeah, it’s harder to harder to make a stand these days.

Joshua T Berglan 7:24
Yeah, I made the decision to get off social media. Well, I think it was like, officially this week, or I decided over the weekend, and then, you know, just tapped out. And it’s been amazing how much less noise is in my head. And you know, and I, I thought that I was contributing and doing something good being a part of any part of the social media movement, as far as you know, whether it’s spreading positivity or spreading truth or any of that. And I realized that I wasn’t accomplishing anything. I was just stirring up angst in someone that there was someone out there, like for all the people that may agree with what I’m saying. There’s just as many that don’t agree. Right then asking for confrontation. Well, my personality type, I’m a fighter. I’m a fighter, and I will fight you until I’m dead. Like, I don’t care if I don’t have a chance or not. If I if I have to fight I’m gonna fight. Well, you know, when I’m constantly triggered to fight with social media, that’s not a good use of my energy. So I was like, I can’t I’m not a part of this experiment anymore.

Paul David Madsen 8:29
Well, you just you said it just right. It’s not a good use of your energy. And it’s really true. I’d made my list of things to do this morning or yesterday and another here’s there’s 14 people I have to contact about something or other and a lot of energy, a lot of each conversation and whether it’s typing or whatever, that’s a lot of energy. And here we remind me when you said you’re getting off social media. last Easter I had a wonderful event what I did was you know, I still my grief period, of course I still am. But the point is I I you know the time from from Christ’s death on Good Friday to the Sunday morning traditional IS RISEN type of thing. I went on a on a media blackout. I didn’t I didn’t call anybody I didn’t text anybody. I didn’t email anybody. I didn’t turn on the TV didn’t turn on the radio. I was just 100% just log cabin. And you know what? Joshua the time when so slowly, it was wonderful.

Joshua T Berglan 9:37
What Wait, I’ve never actually heard that before. The time was going by so slowly. It was wonderful. Yeah.

Paul David Madsen 9:45
Because well, I mean, it’s almost it was almost meditative. Not really, I was doing everything, you know, doing my normal routine pretty much except for not touching electronics. And, and I, it’s just, it’s just, you know, like, oh, it’s It’s only two o’clock in the afternoon. And when you’re given you don’t have all these bits and bytes flying in front of you all the time, constant text constant, whatever. Oh, it just slows the world down. Back to the 1800s. Maybe. So it was wonderful.

Joshua T Berglan 10:17
There’s something about I was reading I don’t know if it was Dr. Myles Munroe that said this, I couldn’t, I’m pretty sure it was him. He was talking about how as convenience became more available, like with, you know, the progressive nature of technology and the advancements and the advancement of our civilization, with all of that, and the modernization of convenience, making everything so convenient. We’ve actually separated ourselves further away from what we were created to be. Have you heard that?

Paul David Madsen 10:52
I haven’t heard that specifically. But it makes complete sense to me. I mean, you know, the the old take off your shoes and touch the earth type of thing. And when’s the last time any of us do that?

Joshua T Berglan 11:02
Actually, every day, I do this now, every since we moved out of the city, we were live in downtown Minneapolis when I first moved here from LA. And we like when we moved up to the I call it the country because we have ducks and all kinds of stuff in our backyard, which is never seen anything like it. We just happen to live behind the nature’s Preserve. So I think God wanted us here for something because anyway, long story short, I walk barefooted every single day now, I am a believer, and two things that sound about a spiritual woowoo is anything grounding, walking barefoot. And the second thing is sun gazing, which is staring one with one eye at a time into the sun.

Paul David Madsen 11:47
Wow. Wow. That’s a podcast. That’s a whole nother podcast. Oh,

Joshua T Berglan 11:55
we can talk about that for days. But anyway, that’s not why you’re here. And so

Paul David Madsen 12:01
I’m here. I grew up not far from Minneapolis area. And I’m going to check back with you in February when there’s a foot of snow on the ground and see if we’re still walking around barefoot.

Joshua T Berglan 12:13
No, no, no, no, that will end in about two weeks. And when we get our first snow, there you go. Okay. I’m learning pretty quick. It’s already turned the fall here. So yeah, one month of summer.

Paul David Madsen 12:28
story. I know that story. Yep.

Joshua T Berglan 12:31
Anyway, I am. Listen, I don’t even know how to start with this subject. Because it’s I can’t even wrap my head around it. I’m I’m 43 years old. And I’m a mama’s boy for one. And I’m obsessed with my wife. And so I just by looking at the pictures of you, and your sons, and just like looking and checking you out online. I have so much respect for you as a man. And I got a glimpse of it when we were trying to work out these technology issues. But I got a glimpse of the kind of man that You are by just seeing some of your family photos. And I have a lot of respect for you. Because I have no idea how you kept the family together. After losing Well, the one that usually raises the flock. And one of your sons, like how

Paul David Madsen 13:32
it was actually my daughter. My daughter was nearly 31, or nearly 32 years old when she passed. And then nine months after that my wife had died also both of them. It was either one was sudden, or like a car accident or suicide or anything like that. Both were long term chronic illnesses. And it’s kind of like Joshua, when you when you go up to the St. Croix River, they’re not far from you. And it’s a beautiful river with rapids and rocks and Whitewater. And you can rent a canoe. Well, you know, or a kayak and what when you read that kayak, you have to sign at the bottom there. It says, you know, I’m not going to hold you guys liable if I die. And when you sign it, you know if you just do it because that’s you know, if sign up for lots of forms in life. Well, then when you flip over and you’re pinned upside down in a kayak by Iraq, and you’re not sure how many breaths you have left in your life, well, then that signature becomes real. You start living the actual reality of it. And so that’s that’s kind of what happened with us. You know, even when my wife was in a rehab facility and then a nursing home as her health continued to worsen. I’m still naive enough to think oh, well, she’s gonna get better she’s gonna get better and, and then one day it did hit me when I’m driving up the hill to visit her at the nursing home, and it said, She’s not coming home from here. And that was that was a hard moment. So yeah, it is tough for you, right? It’s a, it’s a road that nobody should go down. But you know what? Life? What’s the court, it’s not original, but man plans and God smiles. I’m sure you’ve heard that one before.

Joshua T Berglan 15:27
Oh, I think about this, I love that you brought this up. Because, you know, a lot of the work that we do is geared towards what’s going to happen in the future. Because the the Fourth Industrial Revolution, and for a long time, and this is actually what kind of with this has contributed to me leaving to social media also, is that I believe that I know where technology is going, because I’ve been given the same dreams and visions since I was a kid. And you know, and I started preparing years ago for what will what the world will look like in the fourth industrial revolution. But so to bring up that, quote, the thing that reminded me of this is that because I was putting so much energy into what the enemy’s plans were, and all my focus was going there instead of the promises of God, and the things that I know are true. But one of the things that came up for me was that exact quote, when I was obsessing over what was going to happen that because I’m a conspiracy theorist by nature, I swear to you, I was just born to think that way. And, and so anyway, I was putting so much energy into that. And I was realizing that I was robbing and sucking the joy out of everyday life. So I stepped away from even posting or, you know, falling into that, because we don’t know, yeah, we know that man can have plans, like there can be negative plans or bad plans, or even good plans. But the fact is, none of us are God. And none of us really know what’s going to happen because we don’t know God’s plan. And that, to me, has helped me shift where I put my faith. I mean, my faith and my relationship with God is very strong. It’s, I mean, it’s, it’s everything to me, I have nothing without it. But it’s, it’s really helped me channel in where I’m putting my faith and my energy because of that. So I like those sayings that people bring up, because there’s usually another side to it. Also, that holds true, like, the truth will set you free. There’s layers to that as well. So I appreciate you bringing that up.

Paul David Madsen 17:45
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it’s it. Again, we didn’t plan on these things, of course, and they were slow and demises for both, both my daughter and my, my wife. And, you know, in my book, men grieve, and tell a little bit of story about that, about them, but it’s not a biographical type of blow by blow of in March, this happened to her and then December this happened to her or anything like that. That’s, that’s, you know, that’s important backstory, but it’s boring. And instead, Joshua, what I’m trying to do with the book is really kind of witness on to other men about about, you know, that’s just so hard. When your worlds upset your whole, you call it crazy, you know, it just makes you crazy. Because you just circumvent and circle, circle, circle circle, you just constantly are on this mouse, this rodents wheel in your head, and you just can’t get off it when when you lose one and then especially when you lose two. And so it’s just a rough, rough goal. But the book is intended to be a little bit of a guide, as it was inspired from, you know, I lost my wife and my daughter and so I, I went to grief grief groups, there’s a lot of good organizations, I mean, many of them out there, all of them have their, their positives and, and Joshua, what happened is, at one of the grief groups, I went to my, my wife had been gone for, I don’t know, four months, maybe something like that. Well, I met this woman and I call her Marge in the book. I was it was just after the meeting was over. And she was I don’t know quite how we connected up but she starts talking to me and I learned that her husband had died suddenly apart from her at a different location where she was not and that was really hard on her and she just she lost it basically with me she was very emotional, very crying. Just a total train wreck me over and and I didn’t really do anything Josh but I just kind of stood there and just go listen to a little little different than my usual self but and when when She was done. She had gotten it out and she was composing herself. Oh, she just hugged me and thanked me and told me how much she appreciated what I did for her, which was just basically stand there. And anyway, her her gratitude to me, made me say one thing that says, I want to do more of that, that feels really good to help someone. And so this was the kind of the motivation between me wanting to write the book and do something like that. And so, go ahead. Oh,

Joshua T Berglan 20:36
I was just gonna say it truly speaks to the same, the blessing isn’t the breaking, like you found a gift through your trial, your breaking like your heartbreak, you found a gift, right?

Paul David Madsen 20:50
Well, you know, it’s true. I mean, I’ve written a few other books and had podcasts and TV shows and radio shows over the years and stuff. And there’s always that that struggle, as you probably know, for what is my message? What is my unique message? And after Laura’s lit and Lisa’s death? Well, I kind of found my message. And so yes, that that’s true. The rest of the story, from what Mark? You know, I was at that grief group to help myself, I wasn’t there to help her. And, you know, I’m not pretty selfish at that point. But anyway, I was inspired because of her joy toward me that that moment. So I went home, and I’m I’m researching. Maybe I should write a book about grief. And that’s, you know, just what, what could be better? i That’s my personal story right now, right? Well, I’m looking at this little thing called Amazon, you may have heard of it. And there’s a couple of titles out there. And I said, So I researched grief. And there are 1000s. Of you find 1000s of titles on grief out there. And so I said the world does not need one more book about grief Jaws run. So I was kind of bummed him and went back to the meeting the next next meeting time, and I started looking around. There’s 40 Women at this meeting. And five guys. And why do you think that is? Joshua? What’s up with that?

Joshua T Berglan 22:26
Well, I can tell you right now, it’s because men are taught to not express themselves, honestly. And that is, I think that happens from the very beginning of when we were, we were raised, it’s been afraid, we’re taught to men don’t cry. Men don’t show emotion. And we’re also told that, I don’t know if we’re necessarily directly told this. But we’re also taught to lie. And that’s how we’re taught to lie. And that carries over into our relationships. It carries over into our relationships with children, with lovers with whoever, like we, I believe men are taught to lie from the very beginning, whether it’s indirect or direct. But and that, to me is the real problem. Right? Well,

Paul David Madsen 23:15
I, you know, I mean, I, in the book I allude to John Wayne, and you’re from California, you understand John Wayne, he was in 141 movies between 1954 and the 40s 50s, and 60s, and even into the 70s. And he was the epitome of the man’s man, macho, you know, and don’t say much. And, you know, don’t say anything at all. And you had all sorts of crazy good statements and such a loved one to regret, by the way, but anyway, the the John Wayne culture, you know, I think they influenced lots of our coaches, lots of our dads, lots of our uncles, lots of our grandfathers. You know, on the back of the book, Joshua, I say men may feel that culture limits the way they should grieve the death of their loved ones, men green to addresses that issue in a hands on way, offering practical tools to help them as they experienced the trauma of loss. And so yeah, you’re right, you know, men are are kind of No, guess what, I think it’s changing. Joshua. I mean, you got the you got the millennials coming back from doing service in the, in the Middle East and Afghanistan, Iraq and whatnot. And they have the same post traumatic stress syndrome that their fathers and grandfathers did in previous wars and such. But do you think they’re doing things different nowadays? Yeah, for sure. No, and I think so too, and I think the younger generation is, is opening up a little bit more and realizing that you can talk about these things. I mean, I’m sure you have stories. You’ve heard of relatives or people you know of who came back from World War Two, or Korea or even Vietnam and And they didn’t say a word about it to anybody what they experienced over there. I mean, that’s, that’s some serious bottling up for sure. Have you ever experienced or heard of those kinds of stories?

Joshua T Berglan 25:17
Well, I didn’t, I personally did not serve. And I like that, because it wasn’t an enormous burden. But I do know, several people growing up, one of my best friends growing up his father got his eyes shot out in Vietnam. And I remember growing up with him and seeing his eye, of course, we didn’t know his PTSD at the time. And we didn’t understand about, you know, happening, but I got to see a lot of those flashbacks and other things happen. And I do know some other people that have gone to war and have been, I used to work with complex disabilities. So I got to work at the VA quite a bit. Wow. Okay. Yeah, I’ve worked with a lot of soldiers that had all their limbs blown off. And I’ve seen, I’ve seen some things, and just hearing their stories. It’s, it’s a lot. And but I’m excited, though, to buy that. Because I do think that there is an awakening happening amongst people that they’re starting to recognize that everything that we’ve been told, may not have been exactly true. And so when people start to wake up to a truth around them, I think they start to make better choices for themselves and the people around them. And I think that that is a good, good sign. In fact, I think that some of these senseless wars that we fight, I think that that will soon come to an end also, or at least I hope so.

Paul David Madsen 26:43
Well, I think people are realizing that the cost of this the human cost is just so, so insane. And so I mean, that’s a perfect segue into into one of the sections of my book, Joshua, the in men grief, too, I talked about the sweepers. I mean, we’ve talked about that, indirectly already the the veterans and John Wayne and all that kind of thing. I mean, and I give five types of breathing, there’s not only five types, or anything like that, but I just identify five types. So the first one is, is what I call sweepers. And that’s, you know, how, if you ever sweep a hardwood floor, and you know, you’re sweeping along, and there’s that get it into the dustpan, and then there’s that little, that little line of dust there on the edge, you just can’t get into the dirt and dust pen. And look over here, there’s a there’s an area rug, and you look around is in my st looking around and you sweep that right another area rug. And that’s just like what some men do with grief. You know, they’re there. They’re hiding it. They’re sweeping it under the rug, you know, I’m fine. It’s all good. You know, sorry about your loss. Yeah, it’ll be right. And then, you know, how about them bears or whatever. And so

Joshua T Berglan 27:58
they, but or they were told, like, Hey, let’s go have a drink. Let’s go get effed up, or let’s go have sex with a bunch of random people. Yeah, that’s another way men choose to deal with grieving. And that doesn’t exactly help things either. In fact, I mean, I have some experience with this. But anytime I was upset seeking an external distraction, which was sex and drugs, for me, it’s different for everyone. Right. But that sometimes it’s jumping into another relationship. All you’re doing is carrying that hurt the wounds, you’re carrying all of that into the new relationship. Yeah. And you’re holding that to you’re delaying the pain.

Paul David Madsen 28:44
So slowly, well, they’re in the grief groups that go to the you know, they, they say, you can’t really outrun it, you can’t hide from it, it’ll, it will come up later at some time. I mean, and there’s a woman there who told a story about, I mean, this woman is in her 60s, and her mother’s in her 80s. And the the, the woman in her 60s was a twin, and they lost the twin when they were born when the soul the the woman I know is a survivor and she never knew her twin sister. Well, her mother, the 80 something year old. Just now, you know, after all these years after 60 years does or was starting to have some behavioral issues and, and they they routed it out, you know, she never really talked about the loss of the of the twin the loss of the second girl. And you know, it’s, it’s good. Can you imagine sitting on something like that for 60 years or so I mean, that that’s that’s some That’s some real sweeping and again, she’s not a man, but guess what, it’s not exclusive domain only.

Joshua T Berglan 29:50
No, it’s not I you know, even and I don’t know if your book talks about this or not. I haven’t had the opportunity to read it yet. But it The other thing too, that I see happen is women will hold on to. Women are worse about this than men, I think because they hold on to secrets, the family secrets and they withhold them. And they keep that in grief internally. For that, of course, men will keep secrets to them and their gifts. I personally believe they’re different types of secrets. But nonetheless, these secrets that are keeping like that is causing unnecessary grief. Because those secrets for us to store they’re meant for us to release and, you know, the idea of protecting other family members from the secrets of within the family. That’s all a lot. And all that’s going to do is cause even more pain in the family. And, and I think it’s a lie for I know, I know, it’s a lie from the enemy, because it the whole concept of family is something that offends the enemy. Like they don’t want families and strong families, do you think about what’s going on in the last few years with this, you know, whatever the opinion of the pandemic is, and I will spare mine, but I will say, and of course, anyone that watches my broadcasts knows exactly how I feel about it. But I’m not gonna go the offensive route today. But I, but I think that what I saw with this pandemic is we had an opportunity, some people looked at it, like it was a hardship, some people looked at it, like I mean, I understand getting COVID sucked, it was awful, worst experience of my life, actually. As far as sickness goes, it was terrible. But COVID also brought us an opportunity to get organized, it gave us an opportunity to heal our homes, because, well, now we’re having to be under the same roof with their wife and kids. You know, there was opportunities there. So anyway, not spending too much time on that. I just want to say that, you know, sometimes we look at life, as it’s happening to us. And it’s something that is like God is against us life is universe hates me whatever people want to say. But I choose to believe that all the hardships and the trials that we face, even when they hurt and they just rip your freaking guts up. There is an opportunity that is presented for each of us. Well, look, I

Paul David Madsen 32:25
mean, I agree, I agree. I mean, look at me, I have I find to my message. I mean, I started my career as a youth minister. I mean, I worked at a large church and trying to help the young people there to find their path along the Christian journey. And, and so I’ve been always oriented that way. And so when I, I hit the the double speed bump of these deaths in my life, I, I found found my message and my friend, my dear friend, she she describes it as a calling. And so I embrace that and, and I am trying to get the word out. Just actually, yesterday and today I someone on social media mentioned a comment, I posted a video about my book release party about men and grief to and someone reacted to it. They said, I just lost my wife. And I, I picked up this book. And actually, I do know the guy and I sent him a personal note of offline, you know, and he he, he said, You know, I’m very early in my grief journey. But this this book has already been helpful for me. And now I guess he’s my March to I mean, I just love love to be able to use the stories use the, the journey that I’ve been on Joshua to to be able to, to be out there and in front of the guys who have this happen.

Joshua T Berglan 33:58
Well, you’re you’re, you’re you’re healing, you’re in motion healing, like you’re acting out walking in faith, healing as you go. And not stopping like you’re not stopping to wait until you fully heal before you go out and try to help others like I love that you’ve you’ve you’re in the in the middle of it, and yet still serving I believe where freedom really comes from. So I says to

Paul David Madsen 34:25
thank you this is this is my healing, you know, and it Yeah, they say journal and that kind of started some rough journaling. That’s kind of what what got me going on it. I was in the anger world after a lot one of their losses and walking with a friend and I was complaining to him about how some people behave at funerals. And I said, Oh, I I should write a book about this. And you know, and and my friend said, Why don’t you And so, you know, there’s a lot of lot of stuff out there that just contributes to the to the big story there. You bet.

Joshua T Berglan 35:09
Do you wait Do you as journal writings? Oh, I

Paul David Madsen 35:12
if I was in my other office I could show you the the stack of spiral notebooks that go back to 1992

Joshua T Berglan 35:22
i i Only reason I’m saying this is because I only want to plant the most powerful book I’ve ever written, written. Power book I’ve ever read. It’s sorry, not. I’m happy about the book I wrote. But um, is the heroine diaries by Nikki six from Motley Crue. Oh, by the journey. It’s his journal when he was Harold and his wrote his road to recovery. And all the drawings, you know how like, you want to know paddle doodle. Some of you do, too. I’m a doodler. I’ll draw the corners in color and stuff and all of that. And it was the most brutal reading I’ve ever done yet never felt so connected to somebody, because it was the raw notes, not put into book form. I mean, it was put into a book, but like it wasn’t edited for a book. Here’s the note. My point is this. It was when I read that book, I was at a time of like, trying to pull myself out of my you know, set Chem sex addiction and everything else reading that book really helped me look at the those demons in the face. And and take it on. And so am I bringing this up to saying to say to you, you may have another book in you, just by simply converting your notes into book form? Yeah, oh, yeah. That’d be powerful. Even the raw angry stuff where you’re cursing at God, and all the other, and you’re just off because in the right mind would walk

Paul David Madsen 37:07
you before I comment on that, I want to I want to have your listeners hear the name of that book one more time,

Joshua T Berglan 37:12
the heroine diaries by Nikki six

Paul David Madsen 37:15
diaries. Okay, cool. I wrote it down myself, I think they’ll check that out. You talk about the rough, the rough journaling, and in such an, you know, I don’t know how many pages I had, but you know, soon, soon, well, it worked its way onto the computer or the keyboard and all that anyway, I, I knew that I was an emotional wreck after the loss of my daughter and my wife nine months apart. And so as I sat down to write and grieve to Joshua, I, I was I was somehow smart enough, I don’t know if God guided me or what but smart enough to say, you know, what, I should probably have some, some proofers some review readers, some beta readers helped me out and, and, and people kept appearing in my life. I mean, people I knew who I said that would be, she’d be great. He’d be great, they’d be great. And I ended up the list got to be 12 Different people who were all reviewed my very first manuscript and looked at over here and it is 500% better because they did that. But the reason I throw it out is I was angry. I was I was mixed up I was everything that you are in the grief process and what what there were there were sentences where I think I had two and three and four different kinds of formatting and exclamation points and underlines, and italics and bold in it, and I’m having some pretty smart, journalistic English writing professionals, editors, looking this over hand. Boy, I’m sure glad I did, you know, some lawyers, some medical people, there’s all sorts of involved and the punch line. Joshua is one of my dear friends who have strong journalism background. She was commenting on it. And she says, Yeah, you know, Paul, that first draft that was that was kind of verbal vomit. So hopefully, it has evolved to beyond verbal vomit and I based on the feedback I’m getting it has. I are verbal vomit.

Joshua T Berglan 39:37
I I’m a verbal vomiter so yeah, so I appreciate that art form as well.

Paul David Madsen 39:42
Very well. I have listened to a couple of your hour and 30 minutes shows so I I’m not gonna fight you on that one.

Joshua T Berglan 39:52
I actually yeah, I can. You know what, and that’s the thing too. I’m so grateful that we have our own network because I’m not like You know, stuck under time constraints, right? Five, if I had to talk about something, I don’t want someone telling me I can’t say it. So to be like, I can do that on,

Paul David Madsen 40:12
right I do a show TV show would tell behind the words, TV on local community television. And that’s where I do what you’re doing. I interview authors, and so many authors, they create a book, they work, they work really hard on it, like I worked hard on mine. And you know, this, a lot of them just self publish, they spent a lot of money on it. But they, they get it out there and they hope the world is going to be the path to their door. And guess what, that does not happen, does it? There’s, there’s only a million books a year put out there. Anyway, so that’s why I have a show to help authors to promote to promote their books. The point is, yes, they, you know, community television, 27 minutes, it’s my limit no matter what it got to keep it very focused. Keep the content generic. So I think your free form of expression on your own network, live man and network. I mean, that’s, that’s awesome.

Joshua T Berglan 41:09
Well, I appreciate that. And you know, it’s funny that you bring up community access TV or you know, whatever it’s called

Paul David Madsen 41:14
Wayne’s World. Wayne’s World. Wayne’s

Joshua T Berglan 41:17
World. Yeah. But all even Bob Ross, and my buddy, who’s a journalist used to tour with rock bands, and hip hop bands was raised in Miami, and one of my favorite people, he’s a kingdom guy, one of my favorite guys in the world. His name is David Nori, he just came out with another book that is incredible. Not to promote someone else’s book while you’re here. But we were talking about, he sent me this video of this guy that was just performing his art of music. And he sent me the video. And it was, it was hysterical. It was one of the funniest videos I’ve ever seen in my life. But the guy wasn’t trying to be funny. It was easy to go, you know, to look at that. And I could feel people mocking this guy, always, because it’s goofy. But I looked at it. And I said, this guy believes in what he’s doing enough to pay for TV time to put that on the air. That’s a guy that has balls. And that’s a guy that I have no respect for. Because, well, betting yourself.

Paul David Madsen 42:25
He has a message

Joshua T Berglan 42:27
airtime that says a lot about me because he tiny, so the community access TV, God bless him because to me, they’re for runners for independent media. Absolutely.

Paul David Madsen 42:40
Yeah, well, people have a message and there’s soup to nuts on that channel. But, you know, again, I anybody who has a message is trying to share that message. God bless him, you know, I, I have my message with with my book. And, you know, I talked about the other other types of Grievers to the the weepers, the guys who can’t get can’t stop crying, I talk about the Scheepers the guys who go analytical and, and go inside and you know, cannot act because they’re just, they’re just so internal in withdrawn and, and then other people who have lost, lost their loved ones, that that’d be the leapers. That’s the one year you were talking about. The guys who are looking for their next set alcoholism or a date or whatever, you know, they’re, they’re, they’re masking their grief. Joshua, they’re, they’re leaping away from their grief into hiding into something else that is going to shelter them or delay their grief because it is, in fact delayed. And and you know, as we maybe wrap up here, the idea of the goal that I have Joshua for, for grieving men and for myself, I’m not there yet. I call it the keepers. And that’s the one who are keeping the memories of their loved ones close, and they’re keeping some semblance of a normal life, and they’re keeping all the things that are important, but they’re also keeping their, their their life and one, one gentleman one of my readers, my beta readers, he was talking in depth with me, during the deepest in the most early parts of my grief. And he, he said, Just three very important words, Josh, really, he said, No, I’m going off about something or whatever. And, you know, what should I do? And am I dishonouring their memories if I do this, and blah, blah, blah, all these different things. And he cut through all of that judgment. He says, Paul, you’re still here. And that, you know, you can think about that a lot of different ways. Guy was talking with you yet. What’s it?

Joshua T Berglan 44:55
I said? God’s not done with you yet?

Paul David Madsen 44:57
Yeah. Amen, brother. Amen. Yep. No doubt.

Joshua T Berglan 45:02
Paul, I am really grateful for your time and your story when you please tell everybody I love. But first of all, I love what you’re doing with the TV show, I love that you have a grasp on the importance of media, we’ve had, we can have, we’ve had so many different conversations already out there, that I mean, there’s a lot that you’re doing that I think is amazing. And I love, I love what you’re doing. So Please promote all of it, the TV shows or books where they can find you where they can support you. And we would love to have you back again. I just your wealth of information. And really, really, really just grateful for your journey and all that you’re about. So please share with everybody where they can buy your book. So they review everything else,

Paul David Madsen 45:48
Joshua, I just appreciate the opportunity to be on your platform, you’ve got a wide and growing populace out there. And it’s a great opportunity for me to be part of that. And the live man network. What a great idea. I love what you do and your servanthood roles to other people as they as a coach in media and explain expand their own messages. And, and the way you do it, I still don’t understand all that.

Paul David Madsen 46:17
And neither do your creditors. Anyway, bad joke. But the bottom line is I thank you for the opportunity. My company has grown just like it sounds grow And my my tagline is that I my social media videos, tell and sell the story of your book or business. And so that’s, that’s what I do with my show and my individual consultant and coaching. But I was disrupted about a bottle that and by the deaths of my daughter and my and my wife. And so that, of course became the min grief two story that’s available on Don’t forget the comma, the grief, and that’ll that’ll get you right to it. And it’s doing doing consistent, you know, the first month when you come out as always the best because that’s when all your friends and relatives and everybody else helps out. But I’m pleased to see that it’s consistent after that, too. And with with the help of wonderful shows like yours, Joshua, I hope to get the word out to some to some more men and in fact, women are, I’ve had several women tell me that, oh, I know six guys or five guys that, that need that. And they bought it for guys because they they give it to them and because they they’re the maybe the more sensitive or were ones on the front end. And so they My brother just lost his wife or you know, my, my dad lost my mom. And he’s not dealing with very well above law. And so it yes, it’s for men, but I’ve noticed a lot of women are, are involved with getting it too. And people are even buying it and given to their clergy person or to their church library. And so you know, it’s not just about oh, I don’t have anybody in my life is dead. It’s about you know, who else can you help with it. And it’s a blessing to me to be able to get that word out. So men grieve to on and grow Is, is my home base.

Joshua T Berglan 48:19
Wonderful. Well, Paul, thank you so much for your time. God bless you and all that you’re doing. And we look forward to having you back.

Paul David Madsen 48:28
I look forward to come back. And thank you again, Joshua, for your great ministry here. And your message in your unique Mayor the world buddy.

Joshua T Berglan 48:36
Thank you, sir. God bless. Bye, loving Paul Matson. Everybody wants an incredible story. Of course, you’d be able to do on our website that be able to see the media kit, you’ll find the transcription you’ll find the audio version, the video, of course, but also links where you can support Paul, by his books. And, frankly, look, I know that his messaging hits home for a lot of people because a lot of people are going through different variations of grief. So I I know that he said that it’s written for men and it is but you know, I think it’s good for this is a personal opinion, but I think it’s good for women to buy men’s books sometimes and vice versa. Because I think it’s good to know how the other sex things not for any other reason other than understanding. I, my wife and I are like on the same page 99.9% of the time, but man, I gotta tell you when we speak the different language, you know, from the Venus language and the Mars language. It’s like What planet are you one woman anyway? Long story short. I anyway, I do I recommend this book for men and women alike, because again, you know, I know with my wife, she’s had to the adjustments that she’s made with me having disassociative Identity Disorder. You know, she’s made some hard adjustments. But I know that it’s learning how I think, is what’s helped her be what I need her to be as a wife, when I’m having those moments that I’m not myself, and vice versa for, for me to her. So I recommend this book for men and women. That’s the point. So, God bless you, God bless Paul, and all that he’s doing. And I hope that this serves as inspiration for you that you don’t have to wait till you heal to start making sense of your pain. God bless you. Thank you for watching.

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